It was a real delight to get to meet and interview the acclaimed journalist, economist, and writer, Will Hutton, at the end of last week. Will met Ben Dickenson managing director of the Bylines Network, and me on a zoom session, for a chat about current politics, economics, and journalism. We couldn’t resist – the first question had to be about Will’s take on Trump’s tariffs.
Trump and tariffs
Will Hutton said that he was struck by the way the tariffs have been calculated – from a “mindset of victimhood” or even “mafiahood”, as opposed to an elected politician [Trump]. He explained that the thinking was that whatever the US imported from a particular country, the value would be halved as a proxy for the way that they are being “raped” and “pillaged”.
He used Lesotho as an example. Using this formula, Lesotho has been hit with the highest US tariffs in the world. He also mentioned TikTok, owned by the Chinese, and about to be sold to a Trump supporter, at the time of this interview. Will commented that this, and some other things in the Trump administration were reminiscent of the way a mafia boss operates:
“Al Capone had nothing on this”.
Will sees the situation as really serious, likening it to the economic situation that brought on the Great Depression. He said that it’s possible we can avert something similar but it will take cooperation and, as he says: “Who wants to cooperate with a mafia boss?”
In terms of the UK he mentioned that a 10% tariff has been understood by some as a benefit of Brexit. However, as he points out, America runs a trade surplus with the UK and so really we should have no tariff. On Keir Starmer’s keeping calm approach he said that it may well be the right approach – but that aligning ourselves with Europe would be the way forward.
Overall, he describes the US tariffs as “formulaic” and “the actions of a bully”.
Will Hutton
Will Hutton is an economist, journalist, and writer, with a wealth of experience in these fields. His career has spanned a huge range of things, from being an investment banker, to running think tanks, being an editor at the Guardian and on Newsnight, shaping policy at the Work Foundation, then being President of the Academy of Social Sciences, part of the Progressive Economic Forum, and becoming Principal of Hertford College.
His book, The State we’re in, an analysis of British society, was the biggest selling politico-economic work since the Second World War. His most recent book, This time, no mistakes, described as a “ blueprint for a better future” – and endorsed by Keir Starmer, is a passionate book, envisaging how we can remake Britain.
Indeed, this passion flows through Will. Our next question was on where this passion to find fairness came from.
Passion and fairness
Will explained that he thinks it came from within. It is about fairness. Although often described as ‘liberal left’ he doesn’t especially see himself that way. He is keen to make capitalism work but for the common good.
He talked about a time when he was doing his MBA – as the English speaker he got to write the reports and a fellow student told him he wrote well. One thing led to another…
Will studied economics and sociology at university and he sees this combination as vital. He said that capitalism must include social justice to work effectively.
This time no mistakes – lessons from history
We asked Will about key lessons from the past 200 years.
Will referred to the New Deal that worked, and the Keynesian settlement after World War ll. He then talked about Thatcherism – which failed absolutely. Hence the state we’re in. So a lot to learn…
“What sits behind that learning” said Will, “is that you mustn’t believe that capitalism is magic…it does produce wealth, it does produce innovation…but it has a propensity to inequality, a propensity to monopoly, a propensity to oppress and exclude, it has phenomenal inbuilt instabilities that have to be pro-actively managed by public agencies, and that is elected governments – and that’s the alchemy. What sits behind that is a recognition that if you run a society by asserting egotism, individualism…it’s all about ‘me’…an ‘I’ society…it doesn’t work. Societies are complicated schemes of interactivity, reciprocity, and bonds of trust.
“You have to marry mutuality, fellowship. ‘I have your back, you have my back.’ We’re human beings…the fairness gene is fundamental…”
He went on to reference William Morris and fellowship, and then to say:
“It’s the marrying of the ‘we’ and the ‘I’”.
And that seems like a good place to leave it.
You can hear more of Will Hutton on politics, society, big tech, the far right, and economics by listening to the full interview here.
CLICK HERE TO DONATE TO OUR CROWDFUNDER
HELP US BECOME STRONGER SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO DELIVER POWERFUL CITIZEN JOURNALISM!
